Comment reposted from Common Sense Athiest blog

er eric

thanks for this post, alonzo. and for finally convincing luke.

i’m dropping it too, but first i want to put out this shit-ton of writing that i was doing on the subject, mostly as an aid for a conversation i was having with my girlfriend.

it’s crazy long and a complete mess (moral arguments and calculations are not at all my forté, neither is formatting), but at least it’s numbered so it can easily be refuted/added to. maybe this has all been stated already, but i hope there are some novel points in there.



P1: A man’s public expression of positive judgment of a woman’s sex appeal without her express invitation sends the following social messages:

P1a: It socially signals that he has taken pleasure in viewing her as a sex object
P1b: It urges others to take pleasure in viewing her as a sex object
P1c: It signals that he is in a position that grants him the power to provide these judgments and that he views his judgment as a benefit to her
P1d: It urges others to view the woman as in need of judgment and to provide their own judgment
P1e: it signals that his judgment has either been invited somehow by the woman’s actions or that his judgment has value independent of the woman’s need or desire to hear it.

P2: Sending these social messages has these results:

P2a: it satisfies the man’s desire to attempt to appear powerful and authoritative while also potentially transferring any negative response attention away from the judge and onto the judged woman
P2b: it satisfies the man’s desire to express his thoughts openly and without censorship
P2c: it informs the woman that the man finds her sexually desirable and that he feels that his right to express this outweighs any potential desires on her part to be free from his judgment

P3: While viewing women as sex objects, heterosexual men see the woman as nothing more than a collection of parts that the man can and should act upon. If a man is mentally unbalanced or morally weak and if the woman is sexually unavailable, he can find this train of thought to encourage actions or emotional states such as (but not limited to): rape, physical abuse, emotional abuse, stalking, depression, and misogyny.

P4: it puts her under greater scrutiny from others, which can result in a raised level of stress due to unwanted attention

P5: Publicly judging women’s sexuality has a long pan-cultural history that has provided these cultures with a vast number of stereotypes. The occurrence of a public judgment of a woman’s sexuality works to reinforce these stereotypes in the minds of an audience. These stereotypes include (but are not limited to):

P5a: The cultural standards by which our culture judges a woman’s beauty are correct and these standards are determined by men.
P5b: A woman’s primary purpose and value is reproductive.
P5c: The value of a woman is increased if she conforms to our culturally held standards of beauty.
P5d: A woman cannot be both beautiful and intelligent/competent.
P5e: Attractive women use their attractive qualities to manipulate others.
P5f: Attractive women know they are attractive.
P5g: Attractive women want to be told that they are attractive.
P5h: Attractive women invite sexual attention by virtue of their attractiveness.
P5i: Attractive women are more sexually promiscuous.

P6: it increases the likelihood that this woman, and other women who are deemed to be “sexy”, will be associated with these stereotypes, which can lead to the following outcomes:

P6a: she will be seen as more attractive and desirable by men and will be more aggressively sexually pursued
P6b: she will be viewed by women as a greater threat to their own sense of sexual value and will likely be a target of negative attention and actions from these women as a result
P6c: she will be viewed as less intelligent
P6d: she will be condemned if she has failed to live up to the culture’s stereotyped reproductive standards
P6e: her successes will be attributed to sexual manipulation of others, rather than her own competence
P6f: she will be judged as more sexually promiscuous, which people will extrapolate to judge her greater moral character
P6g: people will feel more validated in commenting on her appearance
P6h: she will be seen as smug and prideful about her appearance regardless of how she behaves
P6i: people will assume that she places great value on her appearance

P7: it increases the strength of stereotypes within a culture, which can lead to the following outcomes:

P7a: people are more confident in their culture’s standards of beauty and feel more validated in their judgment of others when it conforms to cultural standards
P7b: people who do not fit the culture’s standards of beauty may either reaffirm that they have failed the portion of social existence that is a beauty contest and that they are objectively not beautiful, or increase their attempts to conform to these cultural standards which may lead to unhealthy or questionable behaviour such as (but not limited to): eating disorders, cosmetic surgery, over-exercising, sexual risk-taking


C1: The results generated from a man’s public expression of positive judgment of a woman’s sex appeal without her express invitation are mostly bad and desire-thwarting.

C2: They put the woman that is the subject of the judgment, and women in general, at greater risk of physical, emotional, and professional harm.

C3: They do not offer any positive results that could not have been generated by waiting first for the woman’s invitation to judgment.  other eric

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